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**Kelly d** · 22 July 2010, 10:27

Re: My KT on my Dad's side from our Tree

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Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester
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Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester (1155 – 3rd November 1219) was one of the leaders of the baronial rebellion against King John of England, and a major figure in both Scotland and England in the decades around the turn of the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

Saer de Quincy's immediate background was in the Scottish kingdom: his father was a knight in the service of king William the Lion, and his mother was the heiress of the lordship of Leuchars in Fife (see below). His rise to prominence in England came through his marriage to Margaret, the younger sister of Robert de Beaumont, 4th Earl of Leicester: but it is probably no coincidence that her other brother was the de Quincys' powerful Fife neighbour, Roger de Beaumont, Bishop of St Andrews. In 1204, Earl Robert died, leaving Margaret as co-heiress of the vast earldom along with her elder sister. The estate was split in half, and after the final division was ratified in 1207, de Quincy was made Earl of Winchester.

Following his marriage, de Quincy became a prominent military and diplomatic figure in England. There is no evidence of any close alliance with King John, however, and his rise to importance was probably due to his newly-acquired magnate status and the family connections that underpinned it.

One man with whom he does seem to have developed a close personal relationship is his cousin, Robert Fitzwalter. They are first found together in 1203, as co-commanders of the garrison at the major fortress of Vaudreuil in Normandy; they were responsible for surrendering the castle without a fight to Philip II of France, fatally weakening the English position in northern France, but although popular opinion seems to have blamed them for the capitulation, a royal writ is extant stating that the castle was surrendered at King John's command, and both Saer and Fitzwalter had to endure personal humiliation and heavy ransoms at the hands of the French.

In Scotland, he was perhaps more successful. In 1211-12, the Earl of Winchester commanded an imposing retinue of a hundred knights and a hundred serjeants in William the Lion's campaign against the Mac William rebels, a force which some historians have suggested may have been the mercenary force from Brabant lent to the campaign by John.

In 1215, when the baronial rebellion broke out, Robert Fitzwalter became the military commander, and the Earl of Winchester joined him, acting as one of the chief negotiators with John; both cousins were among the 25 guarantors of the Magna Carta. De Quincy fought against John in the troubles that followed the signing of the Charter, and, again with Fitzwalter, travelled to France to invite Prince Louis of France to take the English throne. He and Fitzwalter were subsequently among the most committed and prominent supporters of Louis' candidature for the kingship, against both John and the infant Henry III.

When military defeat cleared the way for Henry III to take the throne, de Quincy went on crusade, perhaps in fulfillment of an earlier vow, and in 1219 he left to join the Fifth Crusade, then besieging Damietta. While in the east, he fell sick and died. He was buried in Acre, the capital of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, rather than in Egypt, and his heart was brought back and interred at Garendon Abbey near Loughborough, a house endowed by his wife's family.

[edit] Family
The family of de Quincy had arrived in England after the Norman Conquest, and took their name from Cuinchy in the Arrondissement of B�thune; the personal name "Saer" was used by them over several generations. Both names are variously spelled in primary sources and older modern works, the first name being sometimes rendered Saher or Seer, and the surname as Quency or Quenci.

The first recorded Saer de Quincy (known to historians as "Saer I") was lord of the manor of Long Buckby in Northamptonshire in the earlier twelfth century, and second husband of Matilda of St Liz, stepdaughter of King David I of Scotland by Maud of Northumbria. This marriage produced two sons, Saer II and Robert de Quincy. It was Robert, the younger son, who was the father of the Saer de Quincy who eventually became Earl of Winchester. By her first husband Robert Fitz Richard, Matilda was also the paternal grandmother of Earl Saer's close ally, Robert Fitzwalter.

Robert de Quincy seems to have inherited no English lands from his father, and pursued a knightly career in Scotland, where he is recorded from around 1160 as a close companion of his cousin, King William the Lion. By 1170 he had married Orabilis, heiress of the Scottish lordship of Leuchars and, through her, he became lord of an extensive complex of estates north of the border which included lands in Fife, Strathearn and Lothian.

Saer de Quincy, the son of Robert de Quincy and Orabilis of Leuchars, was raised largely in Scotland. His absence from English records for the first decades of his life has led some modern historians and genealogists to confuse him with his uncle, Saer II, who took part in the rebellion of Henry the Young King in 1173, when the future Earl of Winchester can have been no more than a toddler. Saer II's line ended without direct heirs, and his nephew and namesake would eventually inherit his estate, uniting his primary Scottish holdings with the family's Northamptonshire patrimony, and possibly some lands in France.

By his wife Margaret de Beaumont, Saer de Quincy had three sons and three daughters:

Lorette who married Sir William de Valognes
Arabella who married Sir Richard Harcourt
Robert (d. 1217), before 1206 he married Hawise of Chester, Countess of Lincoln, sister and co-heiress of Ranulf de Blundeville, Earl of Chester.
Roger, who succeeded his father as earl of Winchester (though he did not take formal possession of the earldom until after his mother's death);
Robert de Quincy (second son of that name; d. 1257) who married Helen, daughter of the Welsh prince Llywelyn the Great;
Hawise, who married Hugh de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford.

**LuRose Williams** · 22 July 2010, 11:16

Re: My KT on my Dad's side from our Tree

Good information...The Prince LLywelyn the Great is of the Hywell or Howell line of your maternal grandmother. is he not ?

Glyndwr disappeared from the pages of history, thereafter a fugitive in the Welsh mountains. He is believed to have spent his last years at Kentchurch, in Herefordshire near the manor of his son-in-law, Sir John Scudamore, Sherrif of Herefordshire and to have died in around 1416, the location of his grave is unknown.

The Owain Glyndwr Society's president Adrien Jones, claimed in 2006 "Four years ago we visited a direct descendant of Glyndwr, (Sir John Scudamore), at Kentchurch Court, near Abergavenny. "He took us to Monnington Straddel, in Herefordshire, where one of Glyndwr's daughters, Alice had lived. (He) told us that he spent his last days there and eventually died there. It was a family secret for 600 years and even (Sir John's) mother, who died shortly before we visited, refused to reveal the secret. There's even a mound where he is believed to be buried at Monnington Straddel." The author Alex Gibbon, however claims in his book 'The Mystery of Jack of Kent and the Fate of Owain Glydwr', that the body of Glyndwr was returned to Wales after his death in Herefordshire and buried at St Cwrdaf Church, in Llanwrda, Carmarthenshire

**LuRose Williams** · 22 July 2010, 12:33

Re: My KT on my Dad's side from our Tree

From the Bowen family history::

Welch Prince meets the Mandan Indians of the United States
Madog Owain and the Mandan people.

The Mandan indian tribe also know as the "White Indians" is conjectured to have mixed with and therefore were descendants of prince Madog (Madoc) Owain of Wales who may be assumed an ancestor of the Madogs of Llanfydnach Wales.Prince Madog ap Owain Gwynedd was a younger son of Owain Gwynedd, King of North Wales, and Queen Brenda, daughter of the Lord of Camo, it is likely that he was born at Dolwyddelan castle in the twelfth century.

Prince Madoc of Wales and his people may have discovered America in 1170 or some 322 years before Christopher Columbus would arrive . British historian Richard Deacon writes in his book Madoc and the Discovery of America ;

"Prince Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd son of a king of Wales, was born in 1150 the story goes. He sailed from Wales and landed near the present site of Mobile, Alabama. He returned home, then made another voyage to the continent. This time he went up the Alabama River and other streams, then disappeared in the wilds of what is now Tennessee. But a traveler's account of the 1800's tells of fair-skinned Indians in that area who spoke some Welsh words and put sentences together in the way Welsh people do."

George Catlin, a nineteenth-century painter who spent eight years living among various Indian tribes, was among those who were impressed by the Mandan's remarkable traits. Catlin wrote: "A stranger in the Mandan village is first struck with the different shades of complexion, and various colors of hair which he sees in a crowd about him, and is almost disposed to exclaim that these are not Indians." The artist also noted "a most pleasing symmetry and proportion of features, with hazel, gray and blue eyes."

[ Ref Cor 1 ] During his long stay which lasted for years among the Mandan tribe, Catlin makes many interesting paintings of almost every aspect of their daily lives as well as written observations. Catlin was the only White man to make a written and pictoral history of these rituals and customs which included, their dwellings and torture rituals. Catlin finally came to the conclusion that the Mandan's were the descendents of the Madog people based partially on these factors.

The Mandans spoke Welsh,they used a boat which was know as the Welsh Coracle and many of the Mandans had blond hair and blue eyes.

Another account of the Madog legend is from, in James G. Perry's Kinfolk,

" Prince Madoc (son of Owain ab Gwynedd) it is said, sailed to America 300 years before Columbus in 1170 with one ship. He returned and equipped ten ships and with colonists sailed again for the new world. It is presumed that he landed at Mobile Bay, Alabama. Early explorers and pioneers have found evidences of the Welsh influence along the Tennessee and Missouri Rivers, among certain tribes of Indians.
There is no record that the Prince ever returned to the land of his birth. Peculiar things have been found in America. It is there are Welsh speaking Indians up the Missouri River called the White Indians. Also, they fish with coracles, and pull the little skin covered boats with one oar, like a spade. These boats are used in Wales today."

Later Mandan's were involved with The Lewis and Clark Expedition

Smallpox decimates the Mandans'

After European contact, the Mandan, Hidatsa and Sahnish were subjected to several devastating smallpox epidemics that nearly destroyed them. They had no immunity and were trusting. Unprotected from these diseases, they became infected. Whole families, clans, specific bands, chiefs, spiritual leaders, and medicine men died quickly, taking with them many of their social and spiritual ceremonies and clan rites.

The tribe was virtually destroyed by Small Pox epidemics before 1796 and is chronicled in Henry and Schoolcraft. Lewis and Clark found two villages one on each side and about fifteen miles below the Knife River. Both villages consisted of forty to fifty lodges and united could raise about three hundred and fifty men. Lewis and Clark describe them as having united with the Hidatsa and engaging in continual warfare against the Arikara and the Sioux. In 1837, smallpox attacked them again, raged for many weeks and left only one hundred and twenty-five survivors. The Mandan's were taken in by the Arikara, with whom they intermarried. They separated, again forming a small village of their own at Fort Berthold. By 1850 there were three hundred and eighty- five Mandan, largely of mixed blood,

The great plague of smallpox struck the Three Tribes in June of 1837, and this horrible epidemic brought disaster to these Indians. Francis A. Chardon's journals state that on July 14, a young Mandan died of smallpox and several more had caught it. The plague spread with terrible rapidity and raged with a violence unknown before. Death followed in a few hours after the victim was seized with pain in the head; a very few who caught the disease survived. The Hidatsa scattered out along the Little Missouri to escape the disease and the Arikara hovered around Fort Clark. But the Mandan remained in their villages and were afflicted worst; they were afraid of being attacked by Sioux if they ventured out of their villages. By September 30, Chardon estimated that seven- eighths of the Mandan and one-half of the Arikara and Hidatsa were dead. Many committed suicide because they felt they had no chance to survive. Nobody thought of burying the dead, death was too fast and everyone still living was in despair. The scene of desolation was appalling beyond the conception of the imagination. The Mandan were reduced from 1800 in June to 23 men, 40 women, and 60 to 70 young people by fall. Their Chief Four Bears, had died. (Shane, 1959, p. 199).

On July 28, 1837, Chardon wrote: "the second chief of the Mandan was the brave and remarkable Four Bears, life-long friend of the whites, recipient of the praises of Catlin and Maximilian, and beloved by all that knew him. " Now, as his people were dying all about him, he spoke:

My friends one and all, listen to what I have to say- Ever since I can remember, I have loved the whites. I have lived with them ever since I was a boy, and to the best of my knowledge, I have never wronged the white man, on the contrary, I have a/ways protected them from the insults of others, which they cannot deny. The Four Bears never saw a white man hungry, but what he gave him to eat, drink, and a Buffalo skin to sleep on in time of need. I was a/ways ready to die for them, which they cannot deny. I have done everything that a red skin could do for them, and how have they repaid it? With ingratitude! I have never called a white man a Dog, but today, I do pronounce them to be a set of black-hearted Dogs, they have deceived me, them that I always considered brother, has turned out to be my worst enemies. I have been in many battles, and often wounded, but the wounds of my enemies I exalt in, but today I am wounded, and by whom, by those same white Dogs that I have always considered, and treated as Brothers. I do not fear Death my friends. You know it, but to die with my face rotten, that even the Wolves will shrink with horror at meeting me, and say to themselves, that is the Four Bears, the friend of the Whites -listen well what I have to say, as it will be the last time you will hear me. Think of your wives, children, brothers, sisters, friends, and in fact all that you hold dear, are all dead, or dying, with their faces all rotten caused by those dogs the whites, think of all that my friends, and rise up all together and not leave one of them alive: The Four Bears will act his part. (Abel, p.124, 1932).

Mandan Village by George Catlin

The Mandan villages consisted of about fifty lodges arranged around a central plaza. In the central plaza was located a sacred cedar post. This post was considered sacred because it represented L

**Kelly d** · 23 July 2010, 04:57

Re: My KT on my Dad's side from our Tree

The Prince LLywelyn the Great is of the Hywell or Howell line of your maternal grandmother. is he not ?

I believe so, looking for the lines to Sinclair. I know we have one or two through the Leslies. I hate being without my research.

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My KT on my Dad's side from our Tree

My KT on my Dad's side from our Tree

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